Professional Learning where Teachers Thrive with Anne Podolsky

Anne Podolsky of the Learning Policy Institute shares the latest research trends in effective teacher professional learning. Some of the findings-particularly on learning environments for experienced teachers may be surprising. What is not surprising is that the collegial professional learning environment of a school has a huge effect on student academic and social emotional learning.

Listen Now (direct link to podcast)

Links discussed in conversation

Think Again: Do the Returns on Teacher Experience Fizzle Out? research brief by Anne Podolsky and Linda Darling-Hammond published by The Fordham Institute

Learning Policy Institute blog

Transcript

Scott Lee: Greetings friends and colleagues, welcome to The Thoughtful Teacher Podcast, the professional educator’s thought partner-a service of Oncourse Education Solutions. I am Scott Lee. If you would like to learn more about how we partner with schools and education organizations please visit our website at www.oncoursesolutions.net and reach out.

For today’s conversation, I am joined by Anne Podolsky who recently completed her doctorate in education policy at Stanford University. Her research focuses on improving education outcomes for students from underserved communities. In addition to her graduate work in education policy, Anne has been an elementary teacher and has completed law school and is currently a member of the state bar of California. Last summer Anne along with co-author Linda Darling-Hammond published a research article about teacher professional learning for the Fordham Institute. We’ll talk about that article in a few moments but first Anne will share about her interest in the intersection between education policy and the law.

Welcome to the Thoughtful Teacher Podcast. Anne,

Anne Podolsky: thank you so much for having me.

Scott Lee: So first off, before we get into your study, I'd like for you to share just a little bit about how you became interested in, in teaching and education law.

Anne Podolsky: Yes. Well, so I taught in Chicago public schools during my teacher preparation program. And that experience, showed me how poorly crafted policies impeded teachers and, and school leaders. And so, I went to law school to better understand this policy and legal context. And I think. I somewhat understood that, but at a minimum I learned how these policies are crafted and executed, and part of that that really interested me was the role of research or sometimes the lack thereof of research and shaping policies and just the conducting of research and the policy world.

Scott Lee: Before we talk about the specifics of the study and the research brief, that we're gonna talk about, could you share a little bit about, your education?

Research and research interests?

Anne Podolsky: Yeah, so I am really interested in the adults in the building, the teachers and the, the principals. I focus on how we attract talented individuals to become teachers and school leaders, how we keep them in the profession. And how we make sure every child has access to a high-quality teacher and school leader.

And so, I have, conducted this research at Stanford where I, received my doctorate in education policy as well as at the Learning Policy Institute, which is a research center started by Dr. Linda Darling Hammond, that focuses on conducting high quality research. And I think more importantly, communicating it in such a way that it helps inform policy and practice.

Scott Lee: Mm-hmm. And there's a lot of misconceptions about teacher learning and I work with teachers doing school-based or building-based professional development. And teachers are often talking about they continue learning all the time, but yet there's this misconception out there that teachers are not necessarily learning anything new especially after the first few years in the field. Why do you think that is? And, and could you talk a little bit about that misconception.

Anne Podolsky: Absolutely. So there, as you said, there's been this persistent question in public education about whether teachers continue to improve as they gain experience in the classroom. And for a while there were some outdated studies finding that teachers plateaued after the first few years.

And so, you know, as you've noted, this has implications for how we think about investing in teachers', professional learning and things like that. However, as part of this research brief, we've reviewed 23 of the most recent studies on this topic that use the most rigorous methods, and they find that indeed teachers continue to improve, oftentimes in their second decade and even third decade of their career.

I mean, it's important to note that the gains to their improvement, are steepest during those first few years, which I think most teachers would say that's true. You learn a lot those first few years, but you can continue learning throughout. And so, I, I think one, there's actually two reasons for this misconception that people had about teachers plateauing.

One was due to studies using what's thought of as a cross-sectional analysis, which is when you say, “okay, in 2025, we're gonna look at all the first-year teachers and can compare them to the 10th year teachers and the 15th and the 20 year.”

You can imagine there might be real differences between those types of teachers and those cohorts that has nothing to do with their experience level. It might be that standards were different to enter the profession in one year versus the other, and so you might see some differences there that aren't actually related to experience. So more recent studies have been able to do something called Teacher Fixed Effects.

So how you can think about that is when you have these huge data sets of teachers and you can connect them to their students? You can look at a given teacher and look at how that given teacher is improving in her ability to improve students' achievement over time. And so, you can do that across these large school districts or states and that gives you a better measurement of how students are or how teachers are becoming more effective. And then the second reason that many studies found that teachers plateaued was that they were either cutting off the years of experience, they were analyzing or having these huge buckets. So, they might say, you know what, we're gonna look at how teachers improve in their first, their second, and their third year and then just say, all teachers in their fourth and above year or group together. And you can imagine there's a lot of variation in that, in that big group. And so, the conclusions you draw are very limited.

And similarly, if you say, “I'm going to just look at how teachers in their first through fifth year compared to those in the sixth to 10th and their 11th to 20th.” There's a lot of variation that can occur within those ranges. But when you bucket experience like that, you're gonna be really limited in your conclusion. So fortunately, we've made advances in our data collection efforts as a field, and so then we've been able to, to more precisely and accurately answer this question.

Scott Lee: Mm-hmm. And I know that, that this has been an issue for, gosh, at least 35 years since I was a first-year teacher. An enormous number of teachers leave typically about half in the first five years. Is that still an issue that we're facing now is that too many teachers are leaving in the first five years? Or are you finding something different now compared to even a few years ago?

Anne Podolsky: So, the teacher attrition rates are definitely still highest in those first few years, and we can dig into that a little, a little bit more, if you'd like about why that is. But we are seeing some improvements in retention compared to what you're saying. Like even in the last, like 10 years ago, I was just looking at something from 10 years ago where we were saying, oh, the, the attrition rates are so high in those first three years, but they're actually getting better, which hopefully suggests some positive trends, in the field.

Scott Lee: Okay, so, the, recent policy brief that you and Linda Darling Hammond published at the Fordham Institute, and we'll be sure and have a link to that on our website. The brief is titled, “Think Again Do The returns to teacher experience fizzle out, do the returns to teacher experiences fizzle out?” Did I say that right?

Anne Podolsky: Mm-hmm.

Scott Lee: Okay. Before we dive into the findings are there other misconceptions about teacher professional learning that you'd like to share or that, or that are common out there?

Anne Podolsky: So, I think that it, some teacher professional learning has gotten a bad rap because, and it's kind of, it's tainted the whole area because it's been- I think what one of my mentors describes is “spring and pray.” They just give you, you know, a, a one-off, lesson or learning on something and then the teacher's supposed to implement it.

Scott Lee: Mm-hmm.

Ann Podolsky: And I think we've learned that professional learning can be really effective at improving teacher's rates of learning when it's not some one-off isolated experience, but it's alongside colleagues and you have opportunities to practice what you've learned and get feedback. And it's connected to what, to a need in your, your school or your classroom.

Scott Lee: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I've noticed that too now that I do consulting with a teacher, professional learning, in that, I still oftentimes have to sell that. No, I'm, I'm not going to come once, we need to be talking about how many days I'm gonna be visiting with you and your school. And that's still kind of a surprising thing for at least some administrators and a lot of policy makers is that you can't really designate that one in-service day to be a professional learning and expect much to change.

So, one of the things that you had mentioned already is that teachers are continuing to learn, but at a different rate as they're more experienced, what are some of the findings around, the, difference between, uh, what a say a third year teacher is learning, versus what a 12, 15, 20 year teacher might be learning or, or the change in classroom performance and improvement?

Anne Podolsky: Yeah, that's a great question. So, a lot of this work. Focuses on how teachers improve student test scores, and that's just because that's what researchers have available. They have these large data sets of student standardized test scores; however, some studies have been able to look at other outcomes, which I think can give us a little glimpse into what these more experienced teachers might be doing. So, one study looked at absenteeism and found that these more experienced teachers, even after one year there were, improving students' rates of attendance, but that the 10th year teachers were, were providing much more meaningful effects on student attendance rates. So, kids were wanting to come to school when they were in classes with the more experienced teachers. And this is especially true for students that were, were chronically absent. So, it seemed like these experienced teachers becoming more effective at meeting the needs of these chronically absent kids. The more experienced teachers were also improving the rates that students were saying they wanted to read for pleasure.

And we've also, in other studies looking at high school teachers, they found that more experienced teachers are increasing the rates of, of their students who actually complete college. So, it suggests they might be having a longer-term effect in some way, as well as increasing the levels of, of higher education kids are, are achieving.

So, they might be really probing a student's interest and having 'em go deep and pursue that. Again, this, this research is very, limited at this point, so we can't say for sure this is what's going on, but I think it's a promising area, that hopefully more work will, will focus on.

Scott Lee: And, and I know you probably have to guess as to why that is. But do you have an educated guess on what it is that those teachers are doing differently or have some ideas about that?

Anne Podolsky: Yeah, I mean, so I think in our, another finding that comes up a lot in this research that I think is somewhat related is that the teachers that make the greatest improvements over time are those in these high quality, supportive professional learning environments. And so, I think the teachers that are having these effects, the more experienced teachers that are having these effects are in these dynamic professional learning environments where schools are orderly and trusting and safe, and they're collaborating with their colleagues.

They have sufficient resources to support their students and to increase their own learning. And so I think that they're, they're able to continuously learn and then become better at meeting students' needs. So, they're not just in that survival mode of maybe the first few years, but they're able to just continue refining their craft and both in terms of how they meet students' needs and how they, refine their methods in teaching their subject and things like that.

Scott Lee: So, if I'm a, say a 20-year teacher, just hypothetically and maybe I read a lot and read a lot about how to, how to meet students, that might not be enough. I need to be in a school where there are other teachers that I can talk about what I'm reading, is that some of the things that you're finding too?

Ann Podolsky: Exactly.

Scott Lee: Or is that, is that an example?

Anne Podolsky: Yes. Yeah, that's a great example. So, I think some people think about a teacher in the classroom and the door shut, but we find that the, the, the school set are best supporting students, but especially teachers, it goes hand in hand, right?

Scott Lee: Mm-hmm.

Ann Podolsky: Are those that are characterized by the supportive environment where teachers have time to collaborate. So, they might have a block of time where they can work on curriculum with, with teachers in the same subject area, or where they can talk to teachers who are supporting the same students and come up with ways to better support their needs. Like that's maybe more of a concrete way to achieve that, that type of collegiality.

But I think there are also environments that researchers found. They, they include teacher evaluations and for teachers to get meaningful feedback, which in any profession, that's, that's so valuable, right? To, to, sometimes it's hard to hear, but you, you learn a lot from that. And so, I think those, these are the sorts of environments where teachers seem to really be thriving.

Scott Lee: Mm-hmm. So, what are some things that administrators and particular policy makers as well, should be doing to help teachers thrive? How, how do you think policy makers are doing right now nationally in creating and doing the kinds of things, that they should be doing to help not just teachers, but administrators and at the school level, at teachers thrive? Are they doing a good job?

Anne Podolsky: So, I think there's some promising efforts. So first, I'll say. One of the top things that comes up for teachers’ reasons about whether to stay in the profession or leave is the quality of the school leadership. And I think that also goes when you're measuring these supportive environments, the quality and supportiveness of the school leadership always rises to the top. And I think especially district and some state efforts are starting to realize this and put resources behind it and realize we need to spend more time selecting thoughtful individuals to become, school leaders, supporting them along the path of preparation and then supporting them when they're on the job. There's various programs throughout the, the nation right now, but I think there's a growing awareness of this and I think that's really promising.

The second major factor that comes up in terms of improving teacher retention and then their returns to experience are again, this, this professional learning environment, the degree to which teachers say they feel like they have a say in the school, that they feel like they're part of a shared community and vision and all working together. And so, I think, the principal again is a big driver of creating that. But also having the things that I just talked about, like those blocks of time where teachers can just plan and discuss and troubleshoot is so valuable. And I think that can really vary across the US the extent to which districts prioritize that.

Scott Lee: Mm-hmm.

Anne Podolsky: And then I'll say one final thing that I think. Districts don't always pay attention to, but the research on teacher improvement finds that teachers improve at a greater rate when they have stability in their job assignment, which I think is really intuitive. If you, if a teacher is teaching in the same subject area or the same grade level, or even in the same school, they're gonna improve at a greater rate because they're not in that mode where they're trying to quickly learn a new subject or a new context. And so again, I know this can be far to, to achieve that, stability.

But I've heard of some districts, and even in schools where they intentionally move teachers around 'cause they think and principals around 'cause they think it's gonna help spur innovation or something. But the research is starting to show that's just not the case. You really wanna try to support that stability.

Scott Lee: Yeah. My first five years teaching, I was in four different schools, so I yeah, I know you're right on that. One of the things in the article, you discuss is high retention pathways. First off, what are the high retention pathways and why are they important?

Anne Podolsky: Great question. So, a growing body of research is finding that teachers who enter the profession with poor preparation are much more likely to leave. And so, a quality preparation includes coursework about learning theory and teaching methods. But it also connects that to clinical work. So ideally, at least a semester of teaching, an opportunity for individuals to get feedback from experienced professionals, as well as the opportunity for those in the preparation program to observe high quality teaching.

So, one example of this is teacher residency programs and these are across the US in different districts. But what those are is they're one year pay, one year paid apprenticeship programs where a talented college graduate works under the wing of an expert teacher in a district and they're able to observe that teaching while also taking coursework. And it tends to be in a subject area or that's in high need in that district that's sponsoring the residency. And so, they typically also will tailor the coursework to address the needs. So, for example, San Francisco has a teacher residency, so they'll educate their, the people going through the program about the needs of San Francisco students and the context and things like that. And in return, the teacher will, often have to commit to working for a certain number of years, oftentimes four years in that district. So, it seems kind of like a win-win. The district gets a teacher that's really well prepared for their context. And the research shows that these individuals have much higher retention rates than, than those that don't, that come through in other programs.

I think other strong pathways; high retention pathways involve mentorship for those first few years when a teacher's on the job 'cause as we've discussed, that's a time when we do lose a lot of teachers. And so, in these cases an individual is paired up with another expert teacher that's teaching in the same subject area or the same grade level, and they have regular time to meet one-on-one to discuss what that teacher's going through, how to support the teacher.

There's opportunities to collaborate as well as for that. Novice teacher to observe the expert teacher and vice versa so they can provide feedback. And this research is finding that this sort of mentorship and support, it has so many positive effects. It increases the effectiveness of that teacher at a greater rate. So, they're becoming better teachers in a shorter amount of time compared to their peers that aren't receiving this. They're more likely to stay in the profession and they're also more likely to be meeting the, their students' needs. So, we're seeing that in improved test scores.

Scott Lee: And another thing that, you discuss, as well is, how to get those more experienced teachers and more effective teachers into the highest need schools where they, where those teachers are needed the most. I know I see it all the time and school districts that, that I've worked in, there's certain schools where teachers are just trying to get out. And in many cases, not always, it is the schools where there's higher needs.

Anne Podolsky: Mm-hmm.

Scott Lee: What are some suggestions to move that back in the opposite direction, to get those more effective teachers in the higher need schools?

Anne Podolsky: That's such an important question.

So, when we research this and, and ask teachers it, you find that these experienced teachers wanna serve high needs students, but they also wanna work in schools that are characterized by this strong professional, collaboration. So that means having a quality principal and having the resources they need to meet their students' needs having a say in decision making.

And so unfortunately, a lot of these higher need schools aren't attractive places to work. And so unfortunately there's not a silver bullet in this case. We gotta just focus on policies that are going to make every school a great place for someone to, to work and for every student to learn. So, some things that are maybe more concrete that can help our funding reforms or additional resources are pushed to schools so that they can decrease class sizes by having more teachers. And so, in that sense, the teacher's better able to meet the student's needs 'cause there aren't quite as many.

Other studies have looked at the effect of paying teachers more in these schools and these studies generally find that the teachers stay in the schools at higher rates when they received the stipend or the increased pay, but as soon as it stops, they leave. So, if, if, if a district or state were to think about doing this, you'd just have to, I think, continue it for it to, to have a meaningful effect. I think any reforms that, that like focusing on that quality of the school leader too, can have such an impact.

There've been studies that look at, what's influences teachers' decisions about whether to stay or leave a school? And I think this pertains to all schools, but especially high needs schools and teachers say, I think they looked at teachers received a $20,000 stipend over the course of four years. And they found that that was not as effective, or not as influential in their decision to, to stay or leave the profession as the quality of their working conditions. So that's the school leader and the, the school environment. So, I think it's just keeps going back to that.

Scott Lee: Yeah. Well, typically the, those suburban schools that have the higher tax base.

Anne Podolsky: Mm-hmm.

Scott Lee: Nicer schools oftentimes a larger group of administrators as well. So a, a lot of the things besides just, just the actual income for teachers. So, is there anything else that teachers in particular should know about how to improve teacher retention?

Anne Podolsky: Yeah. I mean, as a teacher, I, I think focusing on ways in which you can, I mean, there's, teachers are already tasked with so much to do, so I hate to suggest one more thing.

Scott Lee: Mm-hmm.

Anne Podolsky: But just ways you can improve that collegiality in your school, the supportiveness in your school. And if there's ways to, to help the teachers have more say in the community or in the school, and, which I know is hard, but I think that all contributes to that more positive, working environment.

And then I think also thinking about ways you can support those new teachers in their first couple years, even if your school doesn't have a formal mentorship or induction program, just how you might help that teacher. Going through the challenges of that.

Scott Lee: So if you're on the, if you're on the school's leadership team, those are the kinds of things you need to be asking for right away.

Anne Podolsky: Right, exactly. I think those are, are, are a couple really concrete things and when I talk to people outside of the education world, I say, just if you, if you take a step back, if you ask anyone why they wanna, why they like their job or why they don't, it's oftentimes their boss and just the, their colleagues in the working environment. And I feel like that's very much the same case in education.

Scott Lee: Mm-hmm. So, what are some other resources you could suggest and where can teachers find out more about the work that you're doing?

Anne Podolsky: So, I work with the Learning Policy Institute, so I highly recommend that people check out their website. They have research on a range of issues. They focus a lot on teachers and school leaders, but anything from school finance to the science of learning. And I think importantly, they take a lot of thought in figuring out how they can communicate research in a way that will hopefully be most relevant and actionable for policy makers, but also practitioners.

So I highly recommend checking out their website.

Scott Lee: All right. Thank you so much today for joining us, Anne, on the Thoughtful Teacher Podcast.

Anne Podolsky: Thank you for the opportunity and to share today and your interest in this work.

Scott Lee: The Thoughtful Teacher Podcast is brought to you as a service of Oncourse Education Solutions. If you would like to learn more about how we partner with schools and youth organizations strengthening learning cultures and developing more resilient youth, please visit our website at w w w dot oncoursesolutions dot net. Also, please follow me on social media, my handle on Instagram and Bluesky is @drrscottlee and on Mastodon @drrscottlee@universedon.com

This has been episode 11 of the 2025 season. If you enjoy this podcast, please tell your friends and colleagues about us, in person and on social media. Also, five-star reviews on your podcast app helps others find us. The Thoughtful Teacher Podcast is a production of Oncourse Education Solutions LLC, Scott Lee producer. Guest was not compensated for appearance, nor did guest pay to appear. Episode notes, links and transcripts are available at our website w w w dot thoughtfulteacherpodcast dot com. Theme music is composed and performed by Audio Coffee.