Centering with Students in Teacher-Powered Schools with Sarah Giddings and Wendy Salcedo-Fierro
In this conversation Sarah Giddings and Wendy Salcedo-Fierro share their experiences working with students in Teacher-Powered Schools. Teacher Powered Schools are organized intentionally to have a shared, collaborative leadership structure.
Both Wendy and Sarah share how their schools are different, how it changes their professional practices and how the student experience is different from more rigidly focused schools.
Sarah Giddings is the Curriculum Coordinator, Advisor and Instructor at the Washtenaw (Michigan) Alliance for Virtual Education. Her additional roles within the Washtenaw Independent School District Include professional learning coordinator and social emotional learning coordinator.
Wendy Salcedo-Fierro is a Teacher-Powered Specialist at Education Evolving and a former lead teacher, social studies and dual language teacher at Teacher Powered Schools in Los Angeles.
Link
Teacher-Powered Schools Website
Transcript
Scott Lee 0:19
Greetings friends and colleagues. Welcome to the Thoughtful Teacher Podcast, the professional educator's thought partner, a service of Oncourse Education Solutions. I am Scott Lee. Today I share a conversation with Sarah Giddings and Wendy Salcedo-Fierro two Teacher-Powered Schools ambassadors, as we talk about their experiences working in teacher powered schools. Teacher powered schools are a network of over 300 schools that use collaborative leadership to design and implement school programming. We'll discuss more about how this works during our conversation. Sarah is the curriculum coordinator, advisor and instructor at Washtenaw Alliance for Virtual Education. Her role also includes being a professional learning coordinator and social emotional learning coordinator for the Washtinaw Michigan Independent School District. Wendy is a former social studies and dual language teacher. As a lead teacher at a teacher powered school in Los Angeles, Wendy helped articulate her school's K 12 bilingual program, and develop innovative projects, assessments and initiatives. She is passionate about creating democratic schools and supporting teachers and students to be agents of change. We begin our conversation, discussing how each of our guests became involved in Teacher-Powered Schools.
Welcome Sarah and Wendy to the Thoughtful Teacher Podcast.
Sarah Giddings 2:01
Thanks for having us.
Wendy Salcedo-Fierro 2:02
Yeah, happy to be here.
Scott Lee 2:04
First off, let's start with learning a little bit about each of your current roles and maybe share a little bit about how you each came to become involved in teacher powered schools.
Sarah Giddings 2:17
So I am Sarah Giddings. I am a teacher, leader and curriculum coordinator for the WAVE program, which is a part of the Washtenaw Educational Options Consortium. It's a collaboratively designed by all of our districts county wide in Washtenaw County, Michigan, by all nine of our local districts, it is a alternative, non traditional schooling option for students to earn their high school diploma. I have been here for 12 years. And I got started with teacher powered schools movement, actually, because I saw a chat on Twitter that was talking about teacher powered principles. And I kept chiming in saying, Oh, my school does that. Well, my school is like that. And we thought, "we're the only school that did these things, and thought this way about education." And it turned out there was the teacher private schools, organization and movement. And we realized how much we fit in. And my staff and team wholeheartedly embraced, teacher powered, and we've been with them now for about five or six years.
Wendy Salcedo-Fierro 3:35
I am Wendy's and several federal I can Is it a good time to share? Yes, please. I have been a teacher for 10 years. And that has been my primary role for the past 10 years. I'm currently I've shifted to doing work as a specialist with Teacher-Powered Schools. And my journey sort of started really when I began student teaching as a, as somebody who began teaching at a pilot school in Los Angeles, which was a Teacher-Powered School. That's really how I learned to be a teacher. So I go way back. And this has been really the only model that I've known as a teacher. So it's been really great to connect with other schools who have seen the power of teacher power.
Scott Lee 4:20
I think that "teacher powered" is a good name because it shares a meaning for what the movement is and what the organization is. But I was wondering if each of you could share how you define or how you describe what teacher powered schools are.
Sarah Giddings 4:41
So and teacher powered, I define teacher as being anybody who is invested in the school, any you know, whether that is your support staff, your counselor, your community, those people who collectively want the school to succeed and and want to participate in it's in the processes of that school. So I think that's the step I take before even defining teacher power is who we mean by teacher, anybody that wants that school to succeed. And so, teacher powered, is about the process of centering students and collaborative design. So there isn't this one person vision or this guru. It is a collaborative design and always having students at the center, and making those decisions that grow and change as your community and your student centers and the people who are in that system change. So it's, it's an ever changing an innovative model that keeps both of those two things in mind collaborative design and student centered. I think you'd have there Wendy to that definition.
Wendy Salcedo-Fierro 5:55
No, I love that that's such a good definition, I definitely do see "teacher powered" as a way to share power with students and families, and the community. And so teachers in this case, are really valued as experts to drive instruction to drive innovative learning and to really meet students where they're at. So the more collaboration that occurs at a school, I think, the better for students.
Scott Lee 6:20
This is a very different model from what most people would think of when they think of schooling and the way schools are structured today, there must be some misconceptions that people have about teacher powered schools. What are some misconceptions that you all have come across? And how do you reply to those?
Sarah Giddings 6:44
Well, a couple, a couple that come right to my mind, first of all, are that we have no boss, there's no authority, that running the school, which we have our principal, all of the teacher powered schools that are my consortium all have principals. We have an executive director, we have superintendent to oversee, like we have elements of traditional structures. So but there are one in the Teacher Powered Network that don't have those. I'm just saying we do. And so that's not necessarily you have to not have them in order to be teacher powered. Another one is that teacher powered are just certified people. And they're the only one like the club that's only allowing teachers to do this vision that nobody else. And so that's why I like to start by explaining how we define teachers. And, you know, really, that's just like the engine or the phrase we use to be like, there's a different method of leadership here than what you normally see at schools. But those are two big ones. I feel like I'm constantly explaining. For people who do they think they think of this like rudderless ship and future power is actually the opposite of that. It's instead of just having your lonely captain at the at the wheel, you have the crew, actually giving the captain the directions and helping pitch those ideas and setting courts together. My ship metaphor for the day.
Scott Lee 8:25
Do you have anything to add Wendy?
Wendy Salcedo-Fierro 8:26
Question? Yeah, those are, those are questions we get all the time. I think one of the big plans that has come up recently, often is like, it doesn't teach your power imply that there's more work for teachers, right, that this is an additional role that they have to take on. Whereas in reality, I don't see this as it's an additional thing that teachers do, right? It's really the vehicle in which they do their work. So it kind of shifts sort of what like the, like, what teaching could look like, right? What What would we define as a teacher workday? How do we incorporate and embed collaboration more as part of teacher work than what is traditional, like isolation in like the model of traditional teaching, right? So I feel like I don't see it as a as a way of like, Oh, here's just another thing to do, or something to check off. But it's really a different process and a systems change type of work that to really enhance the overall working conditions of teachers and staff.
Sarah Giddings 9:31
And I would add to that, that, my boss, my principal always says, like, because that's another misconception is that, you know, the principal a lot of times is it's a lonely position. And she shouts from the rooftops about how much she loves being a part of a teacher powered workplace because she doesn't want to be that lonely at the top. She really loves that there is an empowered group of educators helping with those decisions isn't all on her Were shoulders. And I think we have just as big of an administrator turnover issue a lot of times as teacher turnover and my director has been at our school as long as I have because, for for, for the administrators in our system, it's been a lot more beneficial the workplace, they aren't burning out.
Scott Lee 10:21
Oh yeah, I hadn't really thought about how this how this could affect burnout and morale. I'm, I'm guessing that most people, educators in the broadest sense, and I'm thinking even, you know, the support staff, I'm thinking, cafeteria, maintenance, all of those people probably stay longer is that been you all's experience?
Sarah Giddings 10:47
Yeah, we, in the alternative, education world, turnover is usually consistently high. And we actually have one of the lowest turnover rates in the county, for any type of school. Most of the people that started the school 13 years ago, are still here. And, and I think that, but I will say that also, because we've changed some of the systems and structures, because teachers felt empowered to say, this isn't working for me. But if we made this change, let's try it out. And see if this works for me. And that's I think, at the end of the day, when you have a problem in your system, or in your workplace, the ability to make that change, collectively means there's not a buy in, and then people are like, Oh, I like that change, I want to stay. Because if it doesn't change, that's when you leave. So I think that being responsive to that reflexive has, has meant we have, we have happy workforce.
Scott Lee 11:52
Right, that makes sense.
Wendy Salcedo-Fierro 11:54
That's also true for the school where I taught at, at UCLA Community School, we've had, you know, high retention rates over the past decade, and we've been a teacher in power school, you know, we've had a lot of survey data that you know, as teachers about what it's like to work there. And so, generally, teachers are more satisfied in type of setting where they're where they are being respected for their, for what they bring to the, to the teaching profession, what they bring to the school community. And they know that they can like third thing they could be they can act on problem solving, right? When things are coming up, they have the ability to enact change within their school community.
Scott Lee 12:34
Let's talk a little bit more about since you both mentioned, the administrator and the role of the administrator, how does the role of an administrator or the mindset of administrator need to be different than what we normally would expect in schools?
Sarah Giddings 12:53
Definitely, I think an administrator to be successful and future power schools have to be willing and want to share power. If you were looking to be the guru, and the one that filters all of the initiatives, and decisions must come through you or somebody that really likes micromanaging in a traditional structure, that is a style that works. For those I think, I think it does lead to burnout, well, when you are responsible for all the decisions coming through the school, and when. So when you're looking for an administrator, teacher, parent school, we're really looking for people who, who want input who desire staff input, who wants to listen to students and make changes based on what students say, and be willing, and be willing to try some things based on if there is turnover, new people come into the teacher powered school or new students come in, and their needs are different and your school environment, instead of being static needs to be reflexive to change that. And that's really you need an administrator that's willing to take some of that risk and, and learn and grow with the crop or the community as it changes, because a lot of our traditional schools are a little bit like the Titanic, and the ship takes a long time to turn where it hits an iceberg. And I here's my ship metaphor, I think I'm gonna continue with this throughout the conversation, but I think that it's because there's there's entrenched, deeply, that kind of leader and structures. And those are so and there seems to be some familiarity in that, that no matter what the community is, this will always be here. And I think teacher power is really like well, because we're all the time and community and conversation with our community. It isn't always going to be the same because the needs and the ideas and the opinions change based on who's in these walls.
Wendy Salcedo-Fierro 15:04
It's definitely a mindset shift for administrators. And I think many Teacher-Powered Schools that are successful have really amazing administrators. But I think like they're saying is, there's really not like that emphasis on that one leader to sort of transform the school, right? I think this is like, moving away from like, the superhero model, where people are like, Oh, this one person is going to transform the schools. But it's also very, like unsustainable, there's a lot of turnover in that invites the revolving door of administrators. And I think that's not a good model. And that's not helpful for students and to bring stability, right. And in schools, where there might already be a lot of turnover. Administrator, ideally, is somebody who really sees themselves as part of a team. And so they're not the ones making the decisions for the teams. They're the ones they're making decisions with teams, and they really embrace collaboration. And so administrators who already kind of have that mindset and see that, you know, teachers also are part of the solution. They, I think they're very successful administrators,
Scott Lee 16:08
it must be that no to teacher powered schools could operate exactly the same way. Why is that? And can you talk a little bit a little bit about the process that that goes on, as your move as a school is moving, or as a faculty or school community is moving toward becoming more of a teacher powered organization or teacher powered model.
Sarah Giddings 16:37
So first of all, it needs to be a collaborative decision, just like what teacher powered is built on, is about shared leadership. So it starts with the community saying, we really want a collaborative leadership model, this is what we're looking for. And we have 15 autonomies, that schools in our network, and schools that want to be teacher powered, there's a range of ways in which they've decided to be collaborative, to exercise collaborative leadership, some schools, you know, there's their state says they can't have collaborative leadership, for example, are the state I'm in tenure is not something that this, that there's local control, it's actually a state grant system with tenure. And so we don't have collaborative leadership over that. But professional learning, that's a big area that I think is a really great beginning step for a lot of tools is it should start with teachers and students giving input on what they think their community needs more learning, learning around. And those needs vary based on your local context. And and that's I think, part of the beauty of the Teacher-Powered model is this model is reflexive. And there's things that we've found practices and principles that we can dive deeper into. But how I approach healthy conflict in my school is going to vary based on how when the school approaches healthy conflict, I think that that is okay. I think too often schools are given this one size fits all model, and then getting really disappointed when it doesn't produce the results of the hopes work as because that model never takes into account community voice and what people really desire and doesn't look at. It looks at results more than the practices to get results.
Wendy Salcedo-Fierro 18:40
I definitely agree with that. I think that's the context of like with where the schools are the state, the local context, LEAs, all of that influence how Teacher-Powered, you know, can can look like and but I do think like, strip power is in a variety of school models from like, charter schools, non charter or public schools, district schools, unionized, non unionized. Community Schools are a big part of Teacher-Powered. And so it really I think, like, doing what they're saying, it really depends on the needs of students, staff and community.
Scott Lee 19:19
So you both mentioned Teacher-Powered practices, what are some of those?
Sarah Giddings 19:25
And that I think is something that my organization even be- having been a teacher powered school for a while, practices, you practice to get better so they aren't the beat, you know, like that. That's I think a really great phrasing that teacher power has done isn't to say like, you can check this off the list and then you're done. Like it's something that a healthy conflict I gave, for example, we learned about it and with teacher powered but it's something that we are going to have to keep working on. As any, anytime somebody comes through our organization, we're going to have to work on what it means to have conflict with someone. But we do have specific teacher power practices,
Wendy Salcedo-Fierro 20:13
I think one of the ones that I really connect with, especially in my role is like the building on the shared leadership or rotating leadership. I think building the capacity in teachers to like stepping into leadership roles, or different areas of decision making in the school doesn't necessarily mean you just have to make all of the decisions all the time every day, you know, but they are part of like building their skills and, and working to meet the needs of like, what is good for students and for schools. I just want to say that's my favorite one, as of right now, because I'm thinking about
Sarah Giddings 20:45
you talked about a couple of them already, like building a collaborative culture. But transparency and decision making is something that I think a lot of teachers right now the climate at for parents and communities as well is. So us how we got to this decision, I think there's always some fear, and particularly in school systems right now. And there's, there's some right reasons for why and there's the wrong reasons why. But embracing transparency and decision making is a practice that we're always trying to get better at. And I think that it's a practice that teacher powered schools, if you want collaborative leadership, if you are centering students, you need to show why decisions were made and talk through that even even if you think it's obvious. So we we do do a lot of talking about decisions at my school and having all of our notes in any meeting that we're in the shared with all of us. So there's no private meetings that are happening. And when we, when we talk, the information we're allowed to share about students, we do that in a way that isn't like, well, I don't know about that students, because only the counselor has that kind of information. They're the only ones that worked with all of the kids, we really pride ourselves on having that transparency and that knowledge. Because that's, that's what collaboration and trust are built on. And I think trust is threaded through all of these practices. But that's yeah, that's one of that's on top of mine for you. Because it's also, we aren't perfect at it at my school. And I think it's one that we're consistently practicing, though. And they want more schools to join us in that
Wendy Salcedo-Fierro 22:34
practices to to keep a growth mindset that we're constantly having. I know, when colleagues are always like, "Oh, we're not doing that one," you know, you know, or like "we can really improve on this practice." So I think keeping that sort of mindset of like we're growing. And keeping students at the very center of decisions is super important and teacher powered schools.
Scott Lee 22:56
It's interesting, because I'm thinking about so many times, so many people that that I meet and in discussions that I have people in other episodes of this podcast, oftentimes there's, there's something where somebody says, Well, you know, it's a practice and or it's a target that we're shooting for, and I don't always hit it every day. I think that that, that that understanding, is sometimes something that we miss that we think, Oh, perfection is possible. So, you know, I'm glad you I'm glad you both mentioned that side of it of it as well, that it's, it's not going to be perfect. And sometimes even it can get a little messy.
Sarah Giddings 23:41
I was just going to add, we give a lot of grace, sometimes to students to fail forward. And and I think sometimes in this process, you have to develop that trust, and transparency and the reminder that these are practices. And we are not always going to do them well, but but we're constantly going back and revisiting them. And we're holding on to these as our guiding principles. And I think sometimes we don't give enough grace to ourselves to do that like as educators, but we, and we do it for students, and we just have to remember for ourselves that it's important too
Scott Lee 24:21
So let's talk more about the student experience. I would think that the student experience must be a little bit different or more unique or something that is unique compared to what students might experience in more rigid types of organizational structures. Can you talk a little bit about what what you see is the student experience and maybe how it is different and and hopefully improved within a Teacher-Powered School.
Sarah Giddings 24:54
So my school probably has its own podcast because we do a lot of things very differently from a lot of schools, just the alternative world kind of gives that to. So we are probably non traditional with a capital N. But I will say even though we do a lot of things differently, I would say, talking about some of the ways that we're different, just in regards to the teacher power principles. Because again, there's, there's a lot of different things we do, I could go all day for in terms of how we've done it collaborative leadership is we do a student's intake survey, right when students come in, that gives us a lot of detailed information about what that because everybody that comes into our school has to have at least tried traditional high school for a semester. So our intake process a lot of times is really around. When was the last time you felt happy? At school? And for our high schoolers? Most of the time? It's in the early elementary years. And when did you feel valued? How did that experience, feel? Can we get a lot of data about the student that has nothing to do with what their GPA and transcripts look like. And we use that to, to identify what those students needs are, and we have a personalized learning plan that students follow. But for example, we did things extremely, and radical difference. And then we started doing student focus groups and students said, you know, "at this, the school doesn't have any live classes. And that's something that we miss from our traditional school structures." So if we were at potentially a non teacher, powered school, it might have filtered up to their principal, eventually, who maybe would have like, said, here's how we're going to do things that trickle that down to staff. And instead, we got that data and decided as a group, well, we'll start offering live classes. And so but then, here's the other part of teacher power, we decided one of the things that teachers hated about live classes was doing them independently. So all of our classes are co-taught. And we built a schedule that allows for every student, or every teacher, to have a co teacher, and not necessarily a special ed co-teacher, a co-teacher of a different subject area. And then we give credit for two classes at the same time, the co-taught in a graded class. So that's just one example. That involves how we did that Teacher-Power practice.
Wendy Salcedo-Fierro 27:46
Yeah, and I think, for my experience, and I think if you were to visit my school, you would see students who are engaged, who are collaborating, who are learning real world content, and using multiple languages, they're bringing in their home languages, their family values and cultures. And all of that is embraced in the school culture and in California was really like not okay to speak different languages at school for a long time. And so I think just kind of thinking about like, how, you know, really honoring students and who they are is really a key in like the way that learning happens. When teachers design the school, they also wanted to create experiences for students beyond like traditional classrooms. And so things like internship programs where high school seniors can go off campus and engage in community internships is one aspect of it. There's also seminar programs where you know, teachers or students are able to do cool non academic things as well, such as like social emotional learning, and pure and strong mentorship programs. They also have things like bike shops, and they get to six bikes during that class. So I think it really helps tailor learning programs to meet all different kinds of students, not just like that one exceptional student. But really, how do we make sure that we respect all students regardless of what they're bringing into the, into the school, right, that we really support them for who they are. And so I think students feel valued. And they feel seen in at least in the Teacher-Powered Schools that I that I've witnessed, yeah.
Scott Lee 29:24
I was wondering if you could just share an interesting story about a student.
Sarah Giddings 29:31
So I love my job, I love my students. And when I got into the alternative sector, I had in the back of my mind that, you know, all of these students were our kids were assigned here and their discipline problems and they just are all the same and every student is unique. I knew that from my practice, but the systemic issues that my students have been able to overcome and They're also what they have voiced to us to change from the systemic challenges that they have, has really been one of my favorite things. And one of the things that we discovered at our school is we have some flexibility around our schedule. So last night, I was working at in the evening, eight to 10pm. In one of our online drop in support hours, we started during COVID. And we kept them because we have some students who work full time and go to school for us. And one of my students is homework. Her mom is a drug addict in another state, and dad passed away. And she has been bouncing and couchsurfing. And she has been trying to work full time and work in the evenings school. I'm her advisor. And it she is 20. And that's the deadline for graduating here in Michigan with a diploma. And so we've been working lately on schoolwork. And last night at 9:30. She finished her last assignment for high school, and I was able to have a couple of teachers join on Zoom and just give her the applause that we wanted to give her and she wrote a graduation speech that she shared with us and promised us she will be coming to graduation to deliver it. And it was being able to have that kind of flexible schedule to be able to meet a student where they were that I feel like that epitomizes why I love working at a teacher powered school. And there is nothing better than helping a student reach a goal that they've worked really hard at so and that was less than 24 hours ago.
Scott Lee 32:02
Thank you both for joining us today on the thoughtful Teacher Podcast.
Sarah Giddings 32:07
Thank you for having us. And if anybody is interested in finding out more about Teacher-Powered, we, we know you're out there and we'd love to help you get to get to where you want to be with your staff. So thank you for having us.
Wendy Salcedo-Fierro 32:21
Thank you so much.
Scott Lee 32:24
The Thoughtful Teacher Podcast is brought to you as a service of Oncourse Education Solutions. If you would like to learn more about how we help schools and youth organizations, embed social emotional learning within their cultures, and implement strength based restorative interventions, please visit our website, www.oncoursesolutions.net. This has been episode four of the 2023 season. If you enjoy this podcast, please tell your friends and colleagues about it either in person or using social media. We also greatly appreciate positive reviews on the podcast app you use. The Thoughtful Teacher Podcast is hosted and produced by R Scott Lee and as a copyright of Oncourse Education Solutions, LLC. We encourage diverse opinions, however, opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect the views of producer, partners, or underwriters. Guests are never compensated for appearance, nor do guests pay to appear. Transcripts are available following the podcast publication at our website thoughtfulteacherpodcast.com where you can also sign up to receive notices when new episodes are released. The music is composed and recorded by Audio Coffee, please follow me on social media. My handle on both Instagram and Twitter is @drrscottlee and on Mastodon @drrscottlee@universedon.com
