Build the Ecosystem for Great Conversations about Race with Matthew R. Kay
English teacher and author Matthew R. Kay shares how to build the classroom ecosystem for having meaningful conversations in the classroom, especially conversations about race in America. In this conversation he shares several interventions he uses and discusses how to craft great questions that lead to quality conversations in the classroom.
Links from conversation
Not Light, But Fire-Matthew’s website
Zac Chase TEDx Philadelphia mentioned by Matthew in podcast
Review of The Book Thief from Goodreads- book mentioned in the podcast
Transcript
Scott Lee: Greetings friends and colleagues, welcome to The Thoughtful Teacher Podcast, the professional educator’s thought partner-a service of Oncourse Education Solutions. I am Scott Lee. If you would like to learn more about how we partner with schools and education organizations please visit our website at www.oncoursesolutions.net and reach out. This episode represents a milestone, today we celebrate with the 75th episode of The Thoughtful Teacher Podcast. As always, I want to thank all of our guests who have joined us over the last five years, but most importantly thank you-all of our listeners across the globe. It continues to be a joy to share important ideas in our work enriching teachers and supporting the teaching profession.
In this episode I am sharing a conversation with Matthew Kay. Matthew teaches English at Science Leadership Academy in the Philadelphia Public Schools. As we will discuss shortly, Matt is particularly interested in how to have thoughtful and real conversations in the classroom about issues of race in America. Besides teaching, he is a sought-after speaker and workshop leader. He has written three books and co-authored a fourth. In our conversation will focus mainly on two of his books Not Light, But Fire: How to Lead Meaningful Race Conversations in the Classroom and his latest Prompting Deeper Discussions: A Teacher’s Guide to Crafting Great Questions. But first we’ll talk about why he decided to become a teacher.
Welcome Matthew to the Thoughtful Teacher Podcast.
Matthew Kay: Thanks for having me.
Scott Lee: So first off, can you tell us what you teach now and why you decided to become a teacher in the first place?
Matthew Kay: I currently teach ninth and 10th graders English, at Science Leadership Academy in Philadelphia. And I went into teaching. It's a family thing. I had a lot of teachers in my family. And my mom was a teacher. My dad taught in, in the church growing up, it was just, it was in the blood. So, I was exposed to it early and uh, yeah.
Scott Lee: And that didn't scare you away?
Matthew Kay: Nope. It was, it seemed like a life well lived.
So, and it matched my talents and my interests, so that's what I ended up doing.
Scott Lee: So, want to be sure and talk about your book, Not Light, But Fire in a few minutes. And then also toward the end, we're definitely gonna let you share a little bit about your new book as well.
But first off can you share why you decided to write Not Light, But Fire.
Matthew Kay: I have always enjoyed teaching about race and discussing race with my students. It's never been something that really made me nervous. I just like it. I think there's a lot of interesting race discussions that can happen.
And I found that as I was trying to get better at teaching and discussing issues of race. A lot of the stuff that was out there was more about convincing me to have those conversations and not as much about how, to best do it. And that seemed to me like a gap that I could, you know, contribute to filling, if not fill all the way, at least, at least, you know, make, make a contribution.
Like, people, a lot of times don't need to be convinced to do it. They just, it's the how.
Scott Lee: Right.
Matthew Kay: They don't need. Right. Yeah. It's the how. And so, I thought that I could write as a, as a current classroom teacher, forever classroom teacher, I could write for current and forever classroom teacher.
Scott Lee: Mm-hmm.
Matthew Kay: Essentially like, here's some things that work for me. Here's some things that don't work for me. Please don't do this. And, just kind of not. Try to meet people at step one, but to meet people at step two, because I feel like every, everybody's meeting folks at step one with the convincing and then abandoning folks, and I wanted to be at the place where I'm like, nah.
All right. Let's say you already understand that racism is real and our kids need to be discussing it, and all cultures have value and all of those things, you know?
Scott Lee: Mm-hmm.
Matthew Kay: Privilege exists, like all of those things. And let's say you're already there. Okay. Now what? You have 30 kids in front of you and you're trying to not end up on the front page of the paper. How do you do that?
Scott Lee: Mm-hmm.
Matthew Kay: And I think that's, that's kind of the audience I wanted to speak to.
Scott Lee: Yeah. Because one of the things that, that I really found interesting and helpful, remembering the younger me when I was a third-year classroom teacher, and, I'm white. All of my students are black and I know I need to do that, or I knew I needed to do that.
And nobody saying how to do that and encouraging me, in the early nineties when I got started. So, that was another reason why I really wanted to pick up your book and I wish it had been there 30 years ago when I got started.
So, I had another aha moment when I was reading it that wasn't directly about teaching about race, but it is teaching about also teaching about race. And you say that, teachers have been trained often about classroom management and how to manage classrooms, although I also want to say a lot of the things that I was taught about classroom management turned out to be either half-truths or wrong, but that's not really the point, but you mentioned, “teachers are taught about classroom management, but not much about conflict management.” What do teachers need to know about conflict management?
Matthew Kay: Well, I think, you know, classroom management obviously is important and I agree there's a lot of like myth making around that. And a lot of that is about like presence. And a lot of that is about making sure that you are being clear in your communication to kids and that you are having enough authority to have them do what you tell them to do. All those kinds of things. And that's all important but I think conflict management is how to manage, what's going on between kids at any given moment.
And I think that oftentimes is not part of that other conversation.
Scott Lee: mm-hmm.
Matthew Kay: Like, you're having a conversation and the kids are participating, they're just like disagreeing, and it's, it, it's not scholarly anymore. Right now personal, so like you're having a conversation and it's like they're, they've stopped debating and they started arguing, they, they stopped listening to each other, then they're trying to score points on each other and that type of stuff.
Scott Lee: Mm-hmm.
Matthew Kay: And that's often not part of conversations about classroom management. And I think those are also the things, one of the many things that keeps people nervous about leading conversations about touchier issues because they feel unprepared to handle conflict. And that's, that's fair. 'cause a lot of times they were not taught how to handle conflict or mentored out of hand. It's either like, you know it or you don't.
Scott Lee: Yeah.
Matthew Kay: I felt like, um, I could contribute a little bit to that. I'm not saying I solved anything, but I, at least I try to provide a framework for things to think about when, when kids start and start getting after it. Yeah.
Scott Lee: Yeah. And both on the podcast and, and when I'm working with, with teachers, working on developing skills around restorative practice and rebuilding a relationship when those things happen. So, another thing that you mentioned in the book that I thought was really useful. As you start working towards having those difficult conversations around race, you say that it's important to be unambiguous with students, both in facts and opinions, and it's really important for you and what you do when you're teaching to say, when you're saying something, that's a fact. And then when you're saying something that's your opinion. And I always think about that when I, when I hear people talk about how to mention opinions because there is some conflict in the, in the profession. Should we ever tell students what our opinions are? And you come down strongly on, yes, we should, and we should be clear when we tell kids that something is our opinion.
What's kind of the genesis or what's behind that thinking for you?
Matthew Kay: I like kids and I listen to, so I think sometimes we get weird and I'm like, you mean if a kid's like, “what do you think about this?” And we're like, “I don't know. What do you think about it?” Like that's weird behavior. I think sometimes we like, we get in our own way. And sometimes that's important. I'm not saying like sometimes the kids will say, “what do you think?” And you do have some version of, “well, I got ideas if I want to hear what you gotta say.” Like, I understand like you're not, you're trying to decenter yourself and all that kind of stuff.
I do understand that. And yet, at the same time, at the end of a really good conversation, kids just want to know what you think. As a human, like they are expressing a human need because they care about you and they value you, and they, they are like, “Hey, fellow human, what do you think about this issue?” And for you to be like a robot all of a sudden, I think it's just weird behavior.
Like, and you don't need to be weird. And I. The issue is like, we shouldn't proselytize our beliefs to kids. Right?
Scott Lee: Right.
Matthew Kay: We shouldn't make all of the lies that they tell about teachers. True. By trying to make sure they all have our politics and all have our, like, that's part absolutely. We should definitely and we should trouble our own thinking in front of kids so that kids, you know, all of those things are true, but also like, don't be weird.
I, I, I think that it is just like I see so much. Like, so, so much of the stuff that people tell teachers to do on social media and stuff, I'm like, are you serious? Like even if a kid ask me like, “what I think about something?” I'm supposed to be like, it was just not tell them.
Scott Lee: Yeah.
Matthew KatL Like, like why? Like also, that's such an inflated, egotistical way to think about yourself as a teacher. You'd be like, I can't share my opinion. If, if I share my opinion, they'll all be influenced. I can't get them to like. Put their laptops down when I tell 'em to put their laptop. You're right. What you mean? Like, I don't have that much influence, like people talking about us, like we're gods. Like if, if I say my opinion, all 34 of my 15-year-old students are gonna be like.
I forget what I said “Mr. Kay, come on man.” Like it's such an egotistical way to move in the world. Like we don't need to be like that. Don't be weird. That's all I'm saying.
Scott Lee: Well, yeah. And it makes me think. Growing up, when I'm a teenager and like at church or someplace, the, the adults around then just passing in the hall or whatever, or, or that I knew they, it would never occur to them not to say what they thought.
Matthew Kay: Yeah. Like it's strange and it's infant-infantilizing. I don't know if I'm saying that right. Like if a kid is like. They are talking to you like a colleague. That's a compliment.
Scott Lee: Mm-hmm.
Matthew Kay: They care what you think. You know a lot, you know how blessed you are that a kid cares what you think about something like that's like we live our whole lives.
Those of us who are do doing this the right way, we live our whole lives trying to be interesting enough where kids would care what we think like and not just try to get a grade if they actually care for us to be dismissive of that. Is, is, is. Silly. Like, you don't make no sense. Yeah. Like I, I don't wanna, yeah.
How dare you be interested in what I'm teaching you.
Scott Lee: Like yeah. I just love that. Don't be weird and, and I think about it in a lot of ways you're playing into that false narrative that we're indoctrinating kids anyway.
Matthew Kay: If you are doing that, it's like, and plus I love debate me. I think if missed opportunity, like, I love talking. This is what I think. Tell me why I'm wrong. That's a beautiful opportunity and a lot of great discussions come from that. 'cause kid love speaking back to the adult world. Say, tell me while I'm wrong.
I like saying, “I'm gonna pick a fight with you if that's okay with you. I'm, I'm gonna pick a fight with you on this.” If you have that relationship built, you know what I mean? Right. But just like. Blanket saying teachers shouldn't share opinions. It's, it's, weird is the kindest thing I can say about it. Weirdo behavior, like I, I don't understand it at all.
Scott Lee: Oh, that's great. I love that. I'm gonna borrow that when this comes up with somebody just calling it weird. I like that. That makes sense. I want to talk just about a couple of interventions, and I want to mention also that there's lots more than what we're gonna talk about in the book.
I never want anybody to, when we're talking about a book, to think, oh, I found out everything. I don't need to buy the book. Now, after listening to the podcast, if you think that you're, you're wrong, you need to buy the book. But. I'm going to talk about a couple of interventions in a second, and I want to frame it in a way that I, I really like some of the interventions that you discuss in the book specifically because I live in a state where there's a divisive issues law.
And teachers are really skittish, in a lot of places, particularly in the south, about what we say, particularly those of us with a background as, as history teachers and sometimes English teachers, and even some science teachers are starting to get worried about, how a divisive issue law could be used.
And one of the things that I like about, some of these interventions that you use with your kids and do it frequently these are good interventions to use to build relationships to start regardless of how far you may be comfortable or willing or able to go in talking directly about issues around structural racism, for example. One of them that I think is really useful is called “burn five.” Tell us about burn five.
Matthew Kay: Yeah, I would say in Philly, I would call it, you know, “busting it up with the kids.” It's like when you walk in having a little bit of time to, and engage them as people before you engage them as students. And I think, not losing that opportunity, for example, I had a student teacher last year that I thought was doing a really good job. And one thing that she did every time we had a fire drill, like a lot of times people would just go out there and just like, stand there and do whatever. But she would use that opportunity to talk to the kids. She's like, “Ooh. It's like free time.” Like go with them and be like, “Hey, you watch that game,” or “Hey, I like your jacket.”
Or, you know, just have little conversations with 'em. And I saw that and I, I compliment her on that. And I feel like. Time for us to manufacture, like I'm a person and you are a person in this space when we share this space as people.
Scott Lee: Mm-hmm.
Matthew Kay: Just for, you know, five minutes or two minutes or 10 minutes. And I think if you have that commitment to talk to someone as a person, regularly, even if it's short or speak to the class 'cause you know, we have huge class sizes here and I'm used to 35 kids. You know, so I ain't gonna get everybody, like, everybody's not gonna get seen and spoken to every single day, but just if, even if you see me talking to somebody else. Like sometimes I was talking with a kid last period, I was covering a class and I was talking with a freshman who was having a hard time and then somebody else was overhearing and I was just trying to make the kid laugh and stuff. And then other kids said, “yeah, that happened to me too.” And we were telling stories and it was just like, even if you aren't talking to a kid. Kid seeing you talk to somebody else shows that like, this is how you take your job. This is how you look at your job. And I think just committing five-ish minutes every class period at the beginning of class period, to let 'em see you as a person first, I think is important because then if I ask you a question that's a little vulnerable later, you know, I'm not just like following a lesson plan. Like, hey, I might care about your answer in a different, you know what I mean?
Scott Lee: Mm-hmm.
Matthew Kay: Like if, if I'm requiring vulnerability from you, I'm not asking you to be vulnerable with a stranger.
Scott Lee: Right?
Matthew Kay: Right. So, I'm like, yeah, we we're not best friends. We'll never be like, we're still teacher student, right?
Scott Lee: Mm-hmm.
Matthew Kay: But at least I see that there's a person there, right. But it's easy to see if there's a person, if you know, you know about their soccer game or you know that they're a fan of a certain team, or they love this show or they're a Swifty or whatever. Like once you have a little nugget of information, then like it helps you in the race conversation. It helps you. It doesn't seem related, but it makes them willing to go there with you a little bit.
Scott Lee: Yeah.
Matthew Kay: And they might be willing to go there with you otherwise.
Scott Lee: Yeah. And another one is called “high grade compliments,” and you probably need to explain a little bit about what that is and then tell us how it works.
Matthew Kay: Well, I, I'm never gonna talk about high grade compliments without shouting out. The brilliant teacher I got that from, I used to work with a guy named Zac Chase. And he has a couple videos on YouTube where he explains that he's done some TEDx talking and stuff like that about it. So, I always want to make sure I say that that's not from my, that I originate, that I, I have my own spin on it and I think, and I encourage teachers to have their own spin on it. Like get in where you fit in, like wherever it makes sense. But yeah, the idea is his. But what, what I saw in his class was that like, I was young teacher jumping up on tables that type and they all liked me 'cause of charisma and stuff, but I went in his class and they seemed to like each other.
And I'm like, “I want that.” Like his is better than mine. Like I want, “how'd you do that?” And so, I watched his interaction with the kids and one of the things he would do is, high grade compliments and he would give the kids individual compliments and then they would give compliments to each other.
And it's like stuff that, like, it's a little bit past the surface about kids' effort, about their personality, their resilience, those kinds of things. And I think the little twist I put on it is I don't, I rarely give it to the kids. Like as much I, I have the kids giving to each other a little bit more.
Scott Lee: Right. I remember that in the book. It- you essentially demonstrate it a couple of times.
Matthew Kay: Yeah.
Scott Lee: And then the kids have to have to do it with each other.
Matthew Kay: Yeah. And then I'll always try to engineer a moment. Yeah. You're like five minutes left. I always make sure I say the nice thing at the end, and maybe if I see a kid that hasn't really gotten one, I try to, you know?
Scott Lee: Mm-hmm.
Matthew Kay: But yeah, it's just, it's something like, like burning five minutes. It's just like I'm showing that we see each other in this space. It's kind of more, even since I wrote Not Light, it's kind of moved, my language has moved from compliment to like appreciation. I still use high grade complements. I still use time compliment still, but it's my prompt for them when they kind of journal before they talk. It's more kind of like, what's some, where's the time when someone in this classroom community has been like a real one? That's, that, that's the language I, so like they, you appreciate it
Scott Lee: And, and I'm glad you mentioned that. The journal piece of it too. I mean, you have 'em write this is part of, this is academic. Yeah. Uh, as well, you know, and, , don't want people to forget that this is not just taking a day off from, from the regular curriculum.
Matthew Kay: Yeah. Well, I think, we have to remember. It's not, it's also not like you don't have to do these activities or any, there's nothing, right? Particularly special about, I just shared what works for me. Like these activities, right? There's all sorts of ecosystem building activities. Like teacher's been doing these forever, right?
Scott Lee: Mm-hmm.
Matthew Kay: But I think the difference is a lot of times that connection's not clear. Like it's really not optional. If you want to have great conversations, you have to do some level of ecosystem building in your classroom. And I think people miss it. Like, or they treat it like it's separate and it's really not like you can have, the most recent book I, I came out with was about prompts.
And you have to write good prompts. I'm not against, like, the crafting of prompts is important. However, if the kids don't care about each other, they ain't gonna talk, right? They surely won't listen. They, they're not going to listen to each other. So, it don't matter how dope your prompt is. They're not going to give you any juice 'cause they're not thinking about each other, they're thinking about lunchtime or what the, the girl they're going try to sit next to next period and all that type of stuff.
Scott Lee: Yeah.
Matthew Kay: They're not worried about your prompt because, could be because you haven't built that kind of ecosystem, so.
Scott Lee: Mm-hmm.
Matthew Kay: I think, a lot of times there is confusion about that. It's not extra. So even if it wasn't journaling before, and it wasn't directly connected to ELA, like this is. Even if it wasn't, it's still valuable because you can't have good discussions consistently. You can have a one-off good discussion, but you're not gonna have a classroom culture of good discussions unless you do this.
Scott Lee: Right.
Matthew Kay: Like, it's, it's not optional because if, if you don't do it, then you know you'll have a lucky day when you are reading a great section of a book, but you're not gonna have a classroom culture. Like when they're discussing a boring part of the book, that's when you know you got 'em. You know what I mean? Like Oh, oh yeah. When they're like giving, when you really, like, nothing really happened, but there's still, but, and that's the culture of discussion. I think that's different.
Scott Lee: I'm glad you pointed that out too. Because yeah, so much is missed about how a good discussion doesn't start the day you decide we're gonna do a discussion.
I think about being a young teacher in particular, when I'd get that lucky discussion that went well, I didn't know how I did it. So, can you tell us about, give an example or two about a student or a group of students that you've worked with that have been particularly effective, and why it worked or a situation where there was a, a good conversation, and the kids really maybe surprised you or just worked out well or what does it look like when it's going well?
Matthew Kay: Hmm. It's a lot of examples. Recently we got to the end of The Book Thief. We just finished that with sophomores. I think I have a pretty unique spin on that. Like how we wrap up the last about a hundred pages of that book. 'cause you know, the bombs are starting to fall and there it's that part and I show kids a handout that explains the Geneva conventions. It's, it's accessible for 10th graders, but like Has a bunch of information and the different rules and that the international community kind of
Scott Lee: Right.
Matthew Kay: I, I want kids as they're like getting to the end of this book and under the threat of the bombs. And then at the end when the bombs actually fall and kill almost everyone in the book, sorry for but death says they don't like pages. Like whatever. Like you, you know what's gonna happen.
Scott Lee: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. It's historical books are great 'cause they can still be interesting even when, you know what, we know how it's gonna end, but the story is still good.
The bombs fall and everybody dies.
Matthew Kay: But, but when that happens, it's, it's already fascinating because the people who do that are the allies and that's us. Like, that's our, our grandparents and our, you know, like, that's America that did it.
Scott Lee: Yeah.
Matthew Kay: But also it's fascinating through the lens of like, at what point is this justified? And it's really heavy stuff for 15 year olds to wrestle with, right?
Scott Lee: Mm-hmm.
Matthew Kay: And we just, a couple days ago, we had a conversation where I showed it to 'em. I showed them the, the, the laws, I mean, showed 'em the conventions and they got in small group pod conversations and they asked like, “what are the difficulties of crafting rules of war?”
“Why would that be difficult?” And they got to all the good stuff. Like, how do you know people are gonna follow it? Like, what do you, how do you punish in the international community? Like we all have different, like they got to all the good stuff and then. We kind of pivoted from there to your knowledge, have these rules been followed like since they were written?
I was listening to their conversations 'cause I record the conversations. And they got, they went to some heavy places. They were talking about Palestine, they were talking about Russia, they were talking about, like, they were talking, they were showing a knowledge of what's going on in the world.
I mean, they're 15 year olds, so they're, there's some misconceptions and there's some, but yeah, I'm listening to it and they're really wrestling with it. And when we went from small group to whole class, which wasn't my plan, but I mean, I just liked what I was overhearing as I was walking around and we talked about it and it got really, got really good. But what I liked about it, when I think of all the things to think about is why this is the one I'm sharing, is because it was a way for them to engage. There's a way that I could have engaged that conversation.
Scott Lee: Mm-hmm.
Matthew Kay: That would've put in my head on the chopping block.
Scott Lee: Right.
Matthew Kay: There's a way for me to engage that conversation where I walked in and said, “do you think Israel is right?” If they do blah, blah, blah, blah, right?
Scott Lee: Mm-hmm.
Matthew Kay: Like, there's versions of that conversation that would put my head on the chopping block and, there's versions of that conversation, because I, I talk about like, I'm a history, you know, I mean your history, so, you know. Yeah. But as, as I'm having the conversation, I'm talking about firebombing in Japan during World War II.
Scott Lee: Mm-hmm.
Matthew Kay: In World War II. So, I'll talk about that. Obviously, the nuclear bomb, obviously that, but I also talk about, Sherman marching to the sea. And I also talk about, I just talk about instances where civilians, are either targeted or face massive, where they feel war, like non-combatants are feeling war, right? And, and we kind of wrestle with like, is this a way to fight war? And like, is it moral? But what if you're going against Hitler? I mean, you gotta beat Hitler. Hitler, Hitler. Things you have to defeat. You have to end slavery like you have to.
Scott Lee: Mm-hmm.
Matthew Kay: And, and so I like having 'em, and these are things with no real answers, you know, which makes a good conversation. But what I like about it is with all of those conversations, if I were to have a conversation that directly drew a line, Israel, what is similar between Israel and the Confederate state, that's, yeah.
I'm gonna be on the front page of the paper. You know what I mean? Right.
Scott Lee: Yeah.
Matthew Kay: Like the, that's and maybe I should be like, that's one of those things where like the framing of the conversation is important, and I think taking the conventions and then asking them have they been followed
Scott Lee: Right.
Matthew Kay: And allowed to happen in an organic way, that I think was awesome.
Scott Lee: Yeah, what I like about that too is this is something that you're always gonna have to wrestle with these problems. You know? It, there's almost no situation where it's binary. There's always this, this scary nuance. And, somehow we feel like we need to say one side is right and one side's wrong. And even when there's 95% right on, 5% on the, on the other side, it's not split it down the middle and one side's right and the other's wrong. You know, so…
Matthew Kay: Well, I think we all, as teachers, we have, we're on a constant, I mean, again, those of us who are trying to do this the right way, we're on a quest to be interesting like we want to
Scott Lee: be. Mm-hmm.
Matthew Kay: Right. And binary right wrong is boring. It's boring.
Scott Lee: Well, and it's not useful.
Matthew Kay: And I think The Book Thief is a great book and I think I could teach it in a really boring way. Like, I've gotta take what the author gives me and the author gives me a bunch of like, good Germans mixed up with Nazis all in the same town, and bombs falling on all of them.
I've got to talk about that. Yeah. Like I've gotta talk about, for me to not talk about that means like, I'm letting the Zeus act down. Like I'm letting you all down. Like he gave me a really cool, complex scenario and if, if I just like used it to talk about metaphor. Like, what am I doing? Like I took something interesting and I made it boring.
And I think same thing with the Lord of the Flies example I use all the time, like maybe not as intentional, but Golden gave me something that was kind of racist when he had these white boys, like, indigenous folks and, and have them get like, like he, for me to not talk about that is like a I am just like denying the quest to be interesting. Yes. Like I'm choosing to be boring. Mm-hmm. Which I think
Scott Lee: mm-hmm.
Matthew Kay: I don't want to do that. And you have to, that's what I like about race conversations, and, and you can have the same thing with many things, but my passion is race.
One of the reasons I've always loved that lens is 'cause kids care about it. Like, it's interesting and I don't want to be boring ever. I take that personally. Like everyone's not gonna be interested all of the time. But I want rocking at that 70%. Like, I, I want to be constantly getting that 70 and then creeping up to 80 and then going to, you're, you're never gonna get everyone, but I want everybody like caring.
Scott Lee: Yeah. Yeah.
Matthew Kay: Those, those issues are interesting,
Scott Lee: And, and they're interesting because they affect all of us. Yeah. Whether we want 'em to or not. Kids care about You can't. You can't. Yeah. And, and that's the thing too, you, you mentioned earlier about in, in fantasize infantalizing kids and they care. Eight year olds, nine year olds that are just starting to realize that there's this thing about the color of people's skin and, and it's confusing to them. My granddaughter's just starting to notice that, and it's like, yeah, we need to talk. 'cause it, because it's interesting because it's gonna affect you.
Matthew Kay: Well, I wrote that book with Jen Ora about where we have the, we did Not Light, But Fire For Elementary.
Scott Lee: Mm-hmm.
Matthew Kay: And that was one of the things, it's like. The kids are going ask, the only question for adults is, are we gonna ignore them?
Scott Lee: Yeah.
Matthew Kay: Like, like the kid, like the idea that we can hide race conversations from kids is a pipe dream.
Like, hey, the only question is are we going to ignore them or not? When they notice, like, when my daughter come home and notice, you know, she asks, they talk about on why my skin is darker, my hair is different, and, and I say, I have a choice. I could not talk to her.
Scott Lee: Right.
Matthew Kay: The only choice is lie to her, ignore her, or tell her the truth. Those are the only three things we, we can do. We can't do nothing else. We would intent, choose, lie to them or ignore them. That's like, I don't understand why we would do that.
Scott Lee: Yeah. Yeah. So, you just published a new book, what's the title of it and tell us a little bit about it, why you wrote it.
Matthew Kay: It's called Prompting Deeper Discussions. It is specifically about how to craft discussion prompts. Similar to Not Light. I felt like there was a gap in the discourse around the literal crafting of discussion prompts. A lot of it comes from mentoring student teachers and, and that sort of thing. But just it's, it's not as much about how to, establish relationships and, handle conflict, although it's mentioned a little bit there, but it's not as much about that. It's more about literally like I have an interesting, something to discuss. I, on its own, it's very interesting. It's like what we were just talking about on its own.
The author has given me gold. How do I make sure. I don't use, but I'm sure there's a smart enough.
Scott Lee: reverse alchemy. How reverse not turning. Not turning into lead.
Matthew Kay: Not turning the lead. Like I feel like there's a scientific term I could use where like you take something and it maintains its properties through the project. But sometimes we, we have a really good moment in history and it filters through us to the kids and it's boring.
Scott Lee: Yeah,
Matthew Kay: like, or we have a really good text and it filters through us to the kids or a fascinating scientific concept and it filters to us, to the kids and it's boring and I'm trying to like lose as little of the energy as possible in that transition.
And I think that's what a good prompt is. And so, I don't think I mentioned, I mentioned The Book Thief because I tend to mention the books I teach. So, anything you read is gonna have some Native Son, Book Thief. You'll see the same things. Yeah. Because I, I go to, I wanna be as real as possible and not hypothetical.
These are things that work in my classroom and the things that I teach right now. And so, I don't think I used the book, the, that particular example about the, Geneva Convention stuff, but that would be an example of the kind of stuff I engage in that book. It's like you have these, these bombing scenes that end the book. What questions can you ask kids? So, the kids really are interested in discussing these scenes instead of saying, oh, that was sad.
Scott Lee: Mm-hmm.
Matthew Kay: Like, what are the cool questions that you can ask that will get them thinking? And I think there's a methodology to it. And so, the first part of the book, I kind of break down that methodology, how to craft these prompts.
And then the second half of the book, I actually have opportunities for teachers to practice. So, I have a text, and then I have, a little space for them to write. What, what would you ask kids? And then I have what I ask kids.
Scott Lee: Mm-hmm.
Matthew Kay: So I, they get to see like what my process is, and I'll apply the stuff in the front of the book, which is similar to what I did in Not Light. But in Not Light I just told the story. And this one I treated it more like an activity.
Scott Lee: Mm-hmm.
Matthew Kay: Where it's like. What would you ask? And probably what you ask is gonna be just as good as mine, but just colleague to colleague is just kind of like, I'm sure you wrote something great. Here's what, here's, here's what I ask kids and here's what they normally say.
For some of them, I ask and I ask this, and they normally say something like this and whi, which gives me an opportunity to re-prompt off of this.
Scott Lee: Mm-hmm.
Matthew Kay: Or it gives me an, like, I'm setting up, my right cross with the jab like, yeah. Like I ask this knowing they'll say this so that when they say it, this, I can, I can get this really big prompt because I think a lot of times teachers lead discussions with the impression that it's random. That it's based off our personality. And I talked about that, not like I talk about in this book. It's like, it's not random. Like you can, you, you can have a good discussion plan.
Scott Lee: Mm-hmm.
Matthew Kay: Let's talk about it. Like that's not an, that's not good, right? Not good. I like, 'cause that's when the text has to do all of the work. And you trying to help the text out and not screw the text up, but you don't, if you just say, let's talk about it, then you better have a really good section that really grabbed the kid's attention or a really good moment in history or really good scientific if it, the, the content shouldn't have to do all of the work.
Yeah. We should have to do a little bit of something.
Scott Lee: Mm-hmm.
Matthew Kay: Spice it up. Yeah.
Scott Lee: Oh, that's great. And we'll have links to both books, on our website as well. Thank you so much, Matthew. I've really enjoyed our conversation today.
Matthew Kay: No problem. Thanks for having me.
Scott Lee: The Thoughtful Teacher Podcast is brought to you as a service of Oncourse Education Solutions. If you would like to learn more about how we partner with schools and youth organizations strengthening learning cultures and developing more resilient youth, please visit our website at w w w dot oncoursesolutions dot net. Also, please follow me on social media, my handle on Instagram and Bluesky is @drrscottlee and on Mastodon @drrscottlee@universedon.com
This has been episode 6 of the 2025 season. If you enjoy this podcast, please tell your friends and colleagues about us, in person and on social media. Also, five-star reviews on your podcast app helps others find us. The Thoughtful Teacher Podcast is a production of Oncourse Education Solutions LLC, Scott Lee producer. Guest was not compensated for appearance, nor did guest pay to appear. Episode notes, links and transcripts are available at our website w w w dot thoughtfulteacherpodcast dot com. Theme music is composed and performed by Audio Coffee.
